Participants: Alan Dunn, Clive Gillman, Duncan Hamilton, Lin Holland, Caspar Jones, Rebecca Reid, Steven Renshaw, Hilary Thorn, Gareth Woollam
Becky Shaw: Hello, I'm Becky Shaw, I am the chair of this discussion, 'The Production of the Critical Moment'.
I am sitting with the artists represented in this show.
The date is 10 th February and this exhibition opens in 3 days.
The 'critical moment' is the point in history when all the factors are in place for some kind of revolution or social change to happen. Individuals can drive a revolution forward but if the time and context isn't right it can't work, and whatever the individuals do won't work. However, the time can be right but without the individuals to drive it forward it also won't happen. For a long time these artists have been in conversation about whether we can make Liverpool the kind of critical culture we would want to live in and which can support the work of visual artists. This discussion is intended to explore what it is to attempt to create a critical moment, with the understanding that the process of doing this might create a critical moment.....it also centres on the idea that by talking about these things they might actually happen.
To focus the discussion we are going to explore one question, with the intention that we might actually answer it in 60 minutes: so the question that I want to put to these people here is:
Can WE do this?
I can generally float that question but if it's needed it can be broken down into key aspects, so the first way to do that is to ask:
What is a critical culture? What might it look like? Is it a myth? Does it happen in other places? Over to you..
What do we think of when we think of a critical culture? I think of 1960s/70s New York and I think of Lucy Lippard and Robert Morris and I think of a new kind of art coming about and I think of lots of artists generating that development, and I imagine them all sitting in cafes talking about it.
Hilary Thorn: Do you think that's real or a myth?
Becky Shaw: That's what I'm asking you.
Hilary Thorn: I don't know I'm asking you!
Becky Shaw: For me it's a vision of another time and place but we also have fantasises about this happening in other places in Britain.
Alan Dunn: It's kind of a tricky question to start with. What I guess balances that is of is some kind of combination of a gallery scene, a good generation of artists, writers, the studio network, galleries, a kind of buzz, a kind of very literal understanding of what it might take, I think I don't know what a critical moment is but I kind of know what the ingredients are.
Duncan Hamilton: It sounds like it has an awareness which in some ways I wouldn't imagine that in the 60s and 70s New York they were aware they were in a moment of critical endeavour, as it were you know they would just be getting together and talking in cafes, If you try to suggest that you can build something like that then it undermines it happening
Alan Dunn: Yes, I don't think you can force it. I don't think Liverpool will ever have a critical moment in the visual arts, it won't happen here
Becky Shaw: Why not?
Alan Dunn: Why not? The fact we are aware of its non-existence and if we force it it won't happen
Becky Shaw: But maybe it does exist, maybe we have got it already?
Duncan Hamilton: Yes
Clive Gillman: Is it possible to tell one exists at the moment you inhabit or is it something that can only be defined in retrospect therefore it goes hand in hand with mythologising it, which I suppose chimes with the way in which art history works. The need to have a canon of practice which means you have to define areas of critical mass and support that canon but the sheer messiness of practice doesn't really support the processes of retrospective analysis that historians like to have, so therefore we have little control over how that might be understood, But maybe if we can declare something but we are only going to be judged retrospectively. So we might declare a critical moment but...
Rebecca Reid: So are you saying that that the critical moment in other places is only historical?
Clive Gillman: I don't know, I suppose I am suggesting that you could probably come at it from that angle, I suppose what I am saying is I'm not sure how useful it is as a term to seek, whether or not it is actually more appropriate to work below that term and explore what's possible, what people are actually doing, rather than seeking to work in response to that term.
Duncan Hamilton: It implies some kind of time thing. It's about a moment. And surely you can only really understand in retrospect, So at the point of it happening, if there is such a thing, I'm sure it's not possible to be aware of it. It's only later when it becomes something to talk about, when people refer back to it. It's myth building in many ways
Becky Shaw: So it is as much about communicating something that is happening, or happened, as much as it is about what really happened?
Alan Dunn: We could agree tonight to create a critical moment in Liverpool, to create a fake critical moment. There are some interesting artists and there is an institution here willing to showcase some interesting artists- fertile ground, a university, a city of a certain scale. Certain historical moments in Liverpool, where through pop music, football etc it's been seen as a centre, There is all the evidence there and it would be possible to fabricate a critical moment but all we need to do is break it down, what is that moment?
Duncan Hamilton: But in order to that, to make it feasible you have to have some sort of cultural power to do that.
Alan Dunn: Do we not have that?
Duncan Hamilton: No.
Clive Gillman: What is cultural power?
Duncan Hamilton: People writing in mainstream press, or commenting...
Alan Dunn: That's centralistic...
Duncan Hamilton: That's what makes those things happen, that's why people say, why that period in the 1960s and 70s is seen as a strong intellectual ferment, things going on, because it was written about in mainstream press.
Becky Shaw: Because they have access...
Caspar Jones: The people who reported it weren't the people making it occur?
I think what you are planning to do is not to really do with the quality of things going on but to do with a kind of density of activity?
Becky Shaw: A critical mass?
Caspar Jones: It doesn't even have to be a density of a lot of activity, it just has to be a correlation of things interrelating, so it's not just a series of people who are interested in doing something, but also people who are interested in reporting it have certain connections, and other people doing other activities, musicians etc, and there is some kind of exchange between these people and that kind of builds up in to a picture that is held both by people inside this small mini-society, and when that's represented you say, look, there was so and so and so and so that were doing these things and that adds up to an interesting moment, because things were produced from that.
Becky Shaw: I know exactly what you mean, that you can't make these things happen, these things are historicaI. But does that mean we can't... does that mean, the movement to make an impact, we would like to make some kind of moment to happen, is that wrong then?
Alan Dunn: That's not the question we should be looking for. We say it won't happen but that's not our sole reason for working here.
Becky Shaw: Would it be enough to get some journalists then, is that all we need?
Alan Dunn: I think its interesting, the Biennial tried to pay some journalists to come up from London.
Becky Shaw: It didn't work though did it?
Alan Dunn: It didn't work.
Clive Gillman: That's the kind of boy band approach though isn't it? We can kind of engineer this thing, and be a success and it will, a lot of arts festivals do that, but a plea for...there must be something else. I am interested in this cultural power thing that Duncan said, and it's an elusive thing, cultural power. Like the boy bands, you can think you have cultural power, and get lots of number ones and things but that's not actually cultural power, there are other things going on that you can't control and that are actually much more interesting and actually more powerful.
Becky Shaw: What do you mean?
Clive Gillman: You can't design a change in, engineer a change in popular culture. You can engineer elements of it that are in response to the market.
Becky Shaw: Surely the markets engineer change?
Clive Gillman: But do they? There is a very close relationship between the markets and the generation of culture through popular culture but I'd like to think the markets don't, that its not engineered by any one set of people. Obviously its market driven but that's one way of saying, a lot of cultural activity is market driven because it is about giving something to someone who wants it, but I think that's a whole other set of issues to explore, but that idea of looking to where the power is-both in terms of the latent power, if you act as a creative person, you are interested in exploring things, there are morals and ethics at play within that, which are quite powerful things to work with and exploring how those things can be given room and space to grow, develop, that to me is how you create some of those things that can generate a critical mass.
Becky Shaw: So you are talking about, it's simple, you are not looking for the external validation of something that was a moment, to make a critical culture you just enhance the activities that are taking place. So how do you enhance a critical culture here, do we have one? What are the ingredients that we do have and where do they not work?
Hilary Thorn: It's about activity, and visibility of artists within the city in whatever context that may be.
Becky Shaw: Is it enough to just have stuff going on? Is that a critical culture?
Caspar Jones: Yes if there is enough connection between the things that are going on the people are able support themselves. That to me, because obviously, there is wider interrelations between people, but as long as there is a coherent set of connections between people which are kept alive, it can be four or five people and they are busy and interested in what one another is doing, and their work is speaking to each other. When that comes about that to me is a critical moment in terms of an artists' practice, for something to grow, but in terms of a critical moment for the city that's too big a responsibility for artists to take on, the thing is just to try and produce some work, an ongoing engine.
Becky Shaw: So is that already happening here?
Lin Holland: No, I don't think it is, speaking just very personally, I think it's been something that has been missing from the ingredients of arts practice in the city for a number of years. I think perhaps now it's beginning to develop, and the fact that we are all sat here tonight having this discussion is perhaps an interesting starting point for it to begin to happen, but I think that artists have worked very independently and there have been lots of very interesting practices going on in the city for a number of years and I know there is some history of artists attempting to initiate dialogue across areas of the city but I don't think it has reached the point where it's taking off to the level where the debate has been influential in how the work has developed, and I think to me that's the point where I have become interested in the debate, I thought it was interesting how you phrased the questions, that title, but in brackets you say for artists, a critical moment for artists. And I think the discussion at the beginning is the wider issue and I agree with Caspar that it is too big a responsibility to try and lift that off the ground at this point, but I think what is possible to achieve, how I don't know, but I think it is possible to achieve that critical cross over between people, where there is dialogue about practice, constructive, critical dialogue, which means something. Perhaps that is what is possible to achieve at this level.
Becky Shaw: So what is critical dialogue?
Duncan Hamilton: I think that goes on all the time.
Lin Holland: It does.
Duncan Hamilton: I think there are relationships between people, people in this room I have worked with over a long period of time, Alan for example, and talked about art, talked about ideas, so that kind of activity happens.
Lin Holland: I think it does, it happens between individuals, but whether its possible to create another level to the platform of exchange, that's the question I think, or whether it is possible to formalise, or not formalise, but to attempt to construct a method for that dialogue to happen then maybe it becomes artificial and it doesn't work? The question is interesting.
Becky Shaw: It's what we are doing now.
Duncan Hamilton: In some ways if it was needed it would exist and in some ways if it doesn't exist then maybe it isn't necessary, Personal relationships between one or two artists is where it happens.
Alan Dunn: Like a hotel...
Becky Shaw: A hotel?
Alan Dunn: Like a hotel, in the rooms there are lots of conversations taking place, but it's never attempted to enter the conference room, although there are lots of conversations going on, and that's what's happening here and maybe that's the way this is this city, maybe Liverpool will be that, and maybe that's equally strong and could gain equal notoriety and attention, but it might just be a different format.
Clive Gillman: Buts it's dangerously close to saying it's about a club, the strengths of it are its exclusivity and its ability to develop that critical mass around a very fixed set of people who have all got a stake in each other- stakeholders!- is as much to do with kind of social activity and shared histories as it is to do with any kind of shared cultural intention. While I can see that and see that is how these things happen, for me and the circumstances I have in my life, I want there to be something that is slightly more mature and widespread, in terms of informing things at a more structural level across the city for example, because I don't hang around in pubs and have those conversations, so I miss out on those so I accept that...
Alan Dunn: I see it as it an institutional responsibility, between Bluecoat, FACT etc
Clive Gillman: Well no, it's all about actors isn't it. We are one set of actors within this, Catherine is another actor in this, the other curators in the city are another set of actors, and it's a question of getting the right mix of actors into the...
Duncan Hamilton: Play?
(laughter)
Clive Gillman: Ok yes, the play, in order for that kind of thing to start to function, You can't design the whole thing, you have to encourage the development of certain actors where you have gaps in terms of what it is you are doing, so how that person develops into that role will pull it in different directions, it is an ecology effectively and you have to respect that ecology.
Becky Shaw: So if we were to assess what we have got now and there are certainly lots of histories, even amongst these people here, and there are particular kinds of discussions there.
Clive Gillman: I suppose we would all identify something different which is the interesting thing, so perhaps we should all identify a gap?
Duncan Hamilton: There are no good vegetarian restaurants, it's a real gap.
Becky Shaw: A gap for me, actually there is a lot of commonality of ideas and practice amongst us people here, perhaps to do with practices that have a social connection or are looking at alternative distribution but actually I think there is a gap missing that is a critical discussion about gallery practices and objects.
Lin Holland: I like the sound of that!
(laughter)
Becky Shaw: Do you think that is missing?
Lin Holland: Absolutely.
Hilary Thorn: When you were talking about the danger of it becoming exclusive and elite that's the whole thing that scares me, even this now, we all get together and yes we do have commonality in our practice and whether that does make an elite club of people, and its how other people can get into that and be aware of it happening, how to be part of the dialogue how you make it inclusive, whether that is impossible and whether you are always fundamentally making a club of people that debate certain things.
Becky Shaw: But is it a club? We had the 'who is our audience' event last week, and my issue with it was that after Steve's brilliant pushing, we got 120 people there, but actually what we generated was such a general audience was that there was no discussion, absolutely not really any debate at all. My thinking is that commonality of interest isn't elitism it's commonality of interest. And two people talking in their bedroom is because they have a lot in common.
Hilary Thorn: I'm not saying it is necessarily a bad thing because you have to create what it is that you need and what you want, you have to create what you want rather than what you think other people want and take an arrogant position when you say this thing needs to happen and we are the people to do it, and that is the danger, between what you personally need and what you think others need.
Caspar Jones: I think precisely you have to take on that arrogant position and say this is needed and I am the person to do it.
Hilary Thorn: But how can you tell that other people want that and want you to impose, maybe impose isn't the right word..but that they want you..
Rebecca Reid: But you really have to assume that they are powerful enough to say no we don't want you, get out. My example of being, I'm afraid I'm going to use that word, empowered, my example of being empowered is enough, and if you think what I am doing is providing no service, is of no interest to anyone, then you get up there and be in my place. Is that something that you were trying to express? That's what I was trying to express, knock me off my perch!
Caspar Jones: Yes, I would agree with you, I might say that is what the work of an artist is. You come from a position of not being institutionally empowered, generally, and you can see something you are reacting to something, see something that should be brought to life, and you say I am bringing this to life, and you can't work in a way where you say I am bringing this to life and perhaps its not worth anything and maybe I should go away, because you can't live on that, you can't build on it. So, In my work, the things I've done, I've brought them to light because I thought they were vital and they seem to me personally to be critical moments and I imagine that they are so important that people should group around and express their interest. But doesn't quite come about like that, but a series of things like this, works by artists, makes a kind of consolation or relationship with different, punctures, energies, which open up a new, a kind of dialogue. This is some vision of art practice as a zeitgeist, an opening action to try and identify something which is latent in a place or in a conversation.
Becky Shaw: So can other people help you identify that opening?
Caspar Jones: Yes, they have to.
Becky Shaw: But if you say my vision is this, I'm not going to take other people into account. This is what I believe in, then surely it is not about needing a critical culture?
Caspar Jones: I was thinking about the presentation of a piece of work or of trying to put together an instance of something... which could be held up to be part of this critical culture, or a series of events or activities which are, which are about a vital visual arts practice.
Rebecca Reid: If criticism here is adding another voice in, then there needs to be a voice speaking to begin with. You need to publish your work, to show something in some form, or make it public. And I would imagine that that action shows that you are trying to establish a relationship with others, whether that is one other or many others. The critical voice or critical action, is all about accepting somebody else's modulation of that thing.
Becky Shaw: That's not happening here is it?
Lin Holland: I don't think it does.
Becky Shaw: Small pockets, the Static Pamphlet for instance.
Lin Holland: For some people it does, but it doesn't happen in any... whether it is possible to achieve it in any organised way is the interesting question, a very interesting question.
Duncan Hamilton: Can you give me an example of where it has been achieved in an organised way outside of college?
Lin Holland: College is an interesting model but I think they are highly specific. I think speaking from personal experience, the project that I was involved with Becky and Alan made it happen in a sort of organised way and that was the International Artists Workshop, but they are very rarefied as well and are not to do with this larger picture of, if you like, of looking at altering vision in a wider cultural context. They are very specific to artist's practice and they provide an opportunity for artists for artists to cut themselves off, or not as the case may be, to spend time reflecting and exchanging. But I've been trying to think of a way how you might create some kind of forum for exchange, not just for artists, or maybe just for artists, as I'm not sure who beyond that would be interested in engaging in that discussion.
Clive Gilman: I suppose that's the interesting area for me though, thinking about the question that is raised about... that process of persuasion or establishing a critical relationship. For me a lot of that actually happens in a professional capacity. It's actually about making arguments for things to happen structurally and is completely independent of what I make as an artist. So to some extent I have been involved in institutionalising those processes in order to try and build a structure to enable them to progress and evolve, and that's quite a long way away from what I chose to do as an artist, although sometimes they do overlap. But effectively I see them as two different things. So I suppose going back to that notion of actors again it is playing two different roles really and I don't know whether it's a particularly good thing to do be doing. I've ended up doing it and I don't know if it's counter-productive to either side, I sometimes feel it is.
Caspar Jones: I think something quite similar to you and I think it might be something quite particular to Liverpool as well, where you are making the work but you are also making the structure within which the work can be received. So you are kind of trying to make the kite, the strings that fly and also trying to organise the whole atmosphere so the thing can take place.
Becky Shaw: There's a lot of us involved in things like that.
Duncan Hamilton: That's not limited to Liverpool though is it?
Clive Gillman: What, interests me is the fact that being involved in institutions has led to those institutions growing in a certain way which to some extent is completely parallel to my practice, but is kind of built in the image of how I want my practice to be. But by working with that institution it kind of negates me from working in that arena because I can't feel comfortable in that situation where I'm creating an opportunity for something to happen then taking that opportunity.
Becky Shaw: So how could opportunities be made for you?
Clive Gillman: Good question. I don't know, maybe that's why I'm...
(laughter)
Caspar Jones: That is another thing, in the description of a critical culture, is the situation where there are enough people around and interested to perform the different roles to enable a series of things to exist as opposed to people having to take on a role which is diluted to produce a publisher, promoter and all these other things, and then you get into a very broad understanding of your cultural context but you don't necessarily make very good work, which is sometimes I think to do with the condition of the city.
Steven Renshaw: I'm interested to know whether anyone has got examples where they see it as being successful then?
Alan Dunn: I was lucky to be in Glasgow in the 90s and it possibly was a critical moment, and to take it apart and see what it was, maybe it was the Capital of Culture and the good thing about that was that it brought a lot of high quality stuff to the city, so you could see high quality art, performance, dance etc. There was a very brave city council, key individuals in the city council to bring in more personnel etc, there were key individuals within the arts scene. Individuals who were small ingredients that created a critical moment. The final piece in that was a good generation of artists coming through, Douglas Gordon, Christine Borland. That was complete luck, I don't think you can force that.
Clive Gillman: Where are they now?
Alan Dunn: They've left Glasgow mostly.
Lin Holland: They are in Liverpool...
(laughter)
Hilary Thorn: Could that not happen here?
Alan Dunn: No that's why I say it can't happen here because there was a sense that the whole city needed a critical moment, for everyone, for Joe Public, the whole city needed some kind of attention, some kind of positive..the whole city was behind it.
Becky Shaw: Is that branding?
Alan Dunn: No, I think it's the opposite of branding. It came bottom up, whereas in Liverpool there is a lot of top-down stuff, that's why I don't think it can happen here until it comes from the bottom up. That started with cleaning the tenements and that eventually led to the critical moment, in my experience.
Steven Renshaw: Does something stay that way?
Alan Dunn: Well maybe if you create a critical moment maybe it attracts interesting people to come to that city and see what's going on, maybe it self-perpetuates. Interesting that somebody raised the question is the critical moment a myth, or fake or whatever, it doesn't matter it creates....
Rebecca Reid: Momentum.
Gareth Woollam: Surely a generation of artists can't be based on luck? I'd like to think it wasn't based on luck. The admissions policy in the first place, surely those people are in the right place?
Duncan Hamilton: There's lots of reasons, it's complicated and I think the roving eye of the media played a role. There was a lot of media attention in Glasgow at that time, there was the show 'Weatherall' attracted a lot of attention, people from London came up to see it and it was written about in Frieze, just at the time when Frieze was starting to be looked at a lot by gallerists in London, so there are lots of reasons. I think a lot of it was good work being made, but a lot of it is luck.
Clive Gillman: We talked about it before though. Is that the kind of measure we would use to define a significant critical mass.
Duncan Hamilton: This whole conversation was started when you talked about New York in the 60s and 70s and I think in a broad sense we were talking about what is perceived to be critically interesting work or intellectual developments taking place at a particular time. Of course I don't think necessarily validity is given to it just because- just a conversation taking place can be important, but in terms of its broad impact Liverpool has never had that.
Becky Shaw: Is it a question of numbers? Have we just never had enough people and enough activity? We have per scale quite a lot of art institutions, but if there perhaps more competition?
Alan Dunn: A lot of people have left the city Becky
Becky Shaw: Have they. Don't look at me!
It could be as simple as numbers- if there are more people pushing, the more people staying or coming and making work, the 'ante' gets upped so to speak. Presumably more people come out of Glasgow school of art and stay in Glasgow?
Gareth Woollam: And do they stay in Glasgow and make work in Glasgow?
Alan Dunn: More people use it as a base, there is a whole package of accommodation, studios, galleries, talks. Some of the ingredients are here but I think it is a luck thing.
Gareth Woollam: Do you think people don't stay because they don't see the opportunities to show in Liverpool, whereas I stay in Liverpool but I always think of working elsewhere, because it's a good place to stay, but it's about making work in Liverpool but not showing in Liverpool.
Duncan Hamilton: I agree, its important to remember that when the whole Glasgow thing happened, Douglas Gordon wasn't in Liverpool, sorry Glasgow, at the time. Those people just talked about Glasgow in relation to their practice, so they were picked up and looked at, and talked about in relation to Glasgow even though they weren't living there.
Hilary Thorn: Its about making Liverpool an attractive place for people to come into externally, because people talk all the time about how many artists there are in Liverpool, what a huge underground art scene we have, music scene we have going on. It comes back to with this thing about visibility, whether it's all happening, how you delineate quality within that. Maybe it is then that we want external people coming in to be interested in practicing within Liverpool and engage with people who just happen to live here.
Becky Shaw: But surely, Glasgow, all this stuff happened, you know more about it than me, but surely some people did put things in place, certain things were physically done. Maybe the moment was happening already, but certain things were done to enhance the moment, wasn't it the fact that, maybe this is a myth, but leaders of certain art organisations, when they went overseas or went to other events, they would promote Glasgow artists. I can't actually imagine that happening here. Does that happen here?
Clive Gillman: I think we are falling back on this measures that the measure of a successful critical mass is what gets written about in Art Monthly or Frieze. And I think there are really significant thingsf culturally that are happening in this city and a lot of that is generated by artists but also by other players as well.
Becky Shaw: What are they?
Clive Gillman: Things like Tenantspin that Alan is doing, a really interesting project and all the spin-offs from that and what Duncan is doing, taking those things on the road and experimenting with different kinds of approaches to forms of cultural activity?
Becky Shaw: But aren't they things that actually just make you look good from the outside. How much do those things affect artists here?
Duncan Hamilton: I personally don't make something in order to make Liverpool good. I live here, but I don't feel beholden to make Liverpool a fantastic arts centre.
Clive Gillman: I am talking about things that are inherently good rather than things that are reaching number one in the charts. I would like to think I can make that distinction. I always try to make a distinction between what I like and what is good, and I think I can make a distinction between what is successful in art practice and what I think is good because I don't think the two things are necessarily the same thing. I think critically they are not the same thing and I think that what we have in Liverpool we are doing a disservice to if we chose to ignore what is inherently good in the things we do have.
Becky Shaw: And if we chose to assess them by just what they do for the local?
Alan Dunn: I think there is a lot of great secrets here, this is always a city of secrets. Philip Jeck, one of the most important international musicians is based here, and I think there are nice secrets, and Tenantspin, a lot of people don't know Tenantspin but it's internationally known for its webcast. We tend to..I don't know whether it's humility, fear shyness? There are lot of secrets here.
Duncan Hamilton: It reminds me of a story by Tom Woolf called the 'Greatest Living Artist, Ever' and there is this guy, an old bedraggled guy at a bar and there is this pool of water on the bar and he makes a drawing on a napkin and he drops dead and the water evaporates and the napkin has thrown away. Unless someone sees what you do and there is an audience then...
Becky Shaw: So is there anything we can do then or should we give no time thinking about what we can do to improve conditions here? Is it actually not worth thinking about?
Clive Gillman: We can address issue or problems and that's not about taking the macro view and saying how can we engineer a better situation, I think we all know there are failures within the local ecology and that some of those things are being addressed institutionally. In the long term what's happening is that there is work going on to try and deal with these things and all of us here have contributed to try and make those arguments but I think what we aren't doing is saying we are this tight little meteoric cluster of exciting activity burning through the heart of Liverpool and everyone is going to be drinking in the same bar as us cos we are really funky...
(laughter)
Becky Shaw: You are basically saying that it would be irrelevant to have a discrete Liverpool based critical structure? We couldn't create it.
Duncan Hamilton: No it is incredibly relevant, it's important.
Becky Shaw: So what would it be?
Duncan Hamilton: This. People sitting together discussing ideas, I think it happens all the time. It's not a big mystery.
Becky Shaw: But is it sitting and doing this? I know Gareth has been researching lots of ways to actually make discussion happen, because it doesn't always.
Alan Dunn: Little pockets of critical conversation are more genuine, I take Hilary's point, how does it become non-cliquish, how do you tap into a network. It doesn't mean that that network has to be presented as coherent. Manchester is an interesting model, just down the road, it doesn't have to be the same as here. Maybe Liverpool, we can create a new model, it seems to be the way we work is a strength.
Clive Gillman: A little anecdote, I showed a whole bunch of people from Glasgow round the FACT centre and they went to see the current show and they said don't your councillors come in and shut you down for showing this kind of work? I said what do you mean and they said well its got this thing in it about having sex with their father and I thought we are so blessed here, we don't have that kind of civic interference, the city gives licence that and we ignore it, we don't even celebrate that. Sometimes we don't see enough of what is distinct and important about the city because we are looking at the wrong thing. Some of how the discussion is focused is that it is actually focusing on the wrong this. I don't want to eulogise about the city of Liverpool as a space to be creative, but what I think it does have a lot of strengths which I think are different to what other cities, environments have and I think we need to be able to identify those and work with those, because we want a future where we can work.
Becky Shaw: So what are those strengths?
Rebecca Reid: They say the iron-clad rule of Bohemia is that permissiveness rules- that's what you've just described here, we are the Capital of Bohemia.
Clive Gillman: That's just not a word used anymore as it has become irrelevant as there is no rules left to be permissive about.
Becky Shaw: Permissiveness is one thing and apathy is another. Do we have a permissive art audience or an apathetic art audience?
Rebecca Reid: My comment about the council was, is that just because they don't come and see it?
Clive Gillman : I'm not saying that in Glasgow they go to see the shows and form a critical judgement I'm saying that they look to shoot those things down in a way that they aren't here. They are interested in a kind of success and its not the kind of success we are talking about here but that it actually has some merit. They have a view that is different from ours but if we can find what is good in that view for us then that's a good route to develop.
Alan Dunn: What is missing, even if it is pockets of discourse and events like this bring it together, and lets agree to disagree on a regular basis
Becky Shaw: But maybe we are not disagreeing enough. The Glasgow model of someone saying no is at least an engaged city council?
Alan Dunn: No they are just scared!
(laughter)
Becky Shaw: Gareth is looking at these models for discussion- and again we had this discussion on Saturday that didn't really go anywhere. I don't know why it didn't go anywhere, possibly lots of reasons, but maybe this isn't the right way to have a discussion, I don't mean this exactly because the camera isn't conducive to discussion either, but maybe we could be more inventive about how we make these things happen. And maybe people sitting in a room are always going to agree to disagree doesn't go anywhere.
Clive Gillman: People have got to be motivated and they've got to be motivated by the work and if the work isn't motivating people to talk about it then its just not going to happen, nor should it. That is the only measure in this situation.
Alan Dunn: What is the work that this audience is meant to be looking at? Audience for what?
Duncan Hamilton: Why did you stay here Rebecca?
Rebecca Reid: I stayed here by accident because I was waiting to go somewhere else.
Duncan Hamilton: Waiting for a bus that never showed up?
Rebecca Reid: No-one wanted me anywhere else but its slightly myth. I stayed because I was invited to make some work by Becky and after that I was invited to make work by Bryan Biggs, and after that I was invited to make work by Marianne McKane and after that I was invited to make work by Duncan Hamilton, so I stayed because I was invited to stay and I'm here because I was invited to come and I think.
Duncan Hamilton: That's a very good example of a critical circuit going on.
Becky Shaw: And the reason it happened was because you were interesting. If it hadn't been for good work, so is that just about having a basis of good people here, can we interfere with that at all?
Duncan Hamilton: Are we coming round to talking about the art school now?
Gareth Woollam: That's the thing, that's what worries me about the interesting generation of artists, waiting for them to turn up, we need to get on with it. I can't sit around and wait for those people to turn up so how can we create?
Rebecca Reid: Well now I feel that I am at the stage where I am ready to send out invitations for people to work with me, or to stay here for a brief time to make work with me. This is creating a critical moment but I needed to have an example of how to go about doing that and that came about from artists who are further on in their practice. But there is an element of risk because I might be a one trick pony or a one hit wonder or I might be Westlife and produce seventeen number ones in a row. But I really think the people who invited me to make work have showed courage or vision or...
Becky Shaw: No they were just needy. Its about needing good artists, we need good people to work with
Duncan Hamilton: It's not that Becky, there are good people all over the place to work with it and you don't have to choose people from Liverpool to work with it just happens that Rebecca was in Liverpool.
Becky Shaw: No that's true. They are cheaper...
Duncan Hamilton: You have a choice of the whole world.
Rebecca Reid: But maybe it's not the fact that I'm local but if you are local then you can capitalise on that.
Becky Shaw: One of the things since I've moved to London is that I've actually met artists that are a lot older than me, but in Liverpool there's certainly not loads of artists that are older than me and who I am interested in and one of the things I missed in Liverpool was about needing a sense of artists working longer.
Hilary Thorn: But people keep leaving. We are constantly trying to produce a critical moment or a group of good artists but if people are constantly leaving maybe you are never going to get any closer to that, it keeps on moving but never comes to a point as people move on, never get towards what this thing is. We are talking about a group of people that we want to talk to have discussions with, or work with but maybe it will always get to a point when that group of people will want to go off and do something else.
Gareth Woollam: Suppose if there are three or four it might be enough but I always envisaged more than that, I always thought it needed more than that.
Becky Shaw: But are we talking about the wrong argument, we are all networked all over the country and the world, whatever, and it is unrealistic- the drain of people from here is just the same as the drain from more or less any other British city and again that is the wrong question?
Duncan Hamilton: It doesn't matter where it happens, it is what is right for you, you find people you can relate to and talk to, and groups that you are interested to work with. Where that is, whether it's in Liverpool or wherever doesn't really matter.
Rebecca Reid: Why did you stay in Liverpool?
Duncan Hamilton: I like it, I've been here a while, it's cheap, I have friends here. I didn't stay here for the arts scene, but at the moment it's changed a lot. I get the sense that people talk about Liverpool differently than they used to. There's things happening, the Biennial, the FACT Centre, it's a different perception of Liverpool now. I get the feeling that when Capital of Culture comes there will be the big staring eyes and a lot people will come and a lot of people will write about this place. Whether that means it will be any different to what it is now I don't know but I think attention will shift to Liverpool quite soon. Maybe that's the time to move out.
Alan Dunn: It is very strong in terms of the visual arts, look what we have got, people just not using it, Tate, Bluecoat, it doesn't have a motto. We are going to get to the art school eventually, avoiding the subject, but people staying here, the next generation. Is there a missing ingredient? Glasgow School of Art, an incredibly powerful institution, travelled the world, started new courses. With a new course came a new philosophy that reflected new kinds of art practice and that was important for a postgraduate culture, and that is important to attract people, writers etc. The art school is an important ingredient I think.
Clive Gillman: How many of those people who you deemed to be significant to the critical mass in Glasgow came through the art school?
Alan Dunn: All.
Clive Gillman: Have we put our finger on something here?
Duncan Hamilton: I think it is worth saying that the art school is changing, and it will change and it is being forced to change. There are going to be buildings and staff will change and I think we can be positive and say there are going to be some changes.
Alan Dunn: Gareth you say you can't wait for the future generation but you are the next generation and you come out thinking you are not and that is part of the issue. There is a new generation.
Duncan Hamilton: I see Rebecca and Gareth and Steven and the other artists as incredibly strong and you have to be strong if you stay in Liverpool as you haven't moved to London thinking you are going to make it. Stay in Liverpool, like Padraig he stayed here because he know he could make great work here, it isn't necessary to move.
Becky Shaw: So the ingredients are here to make good work?
Duncan Hamilton: Yes the ingredients are here to concentrate on making good work, there's cheap places to live so you can concentrate. The ingredients aren't necessarily here to talk about making great work but then the world is a great place for that.
Alan Dunn: So distribution becomes a key thing- the network is hidden but it isn't always distributed through galleries-there are things, publications Black Diamond, Exit Review or the webcast. There's a lot of strategies. That's a strength.
Becky Shaw: I think actually, above and beyond whether this is also happening in other places, I do actually think there are a lot people working here in strategic ways either in employment or through other ways who do actually attempt to open, change or find new distributive channels. That's really interesting and is in alignment with what is happening everywhere else but is important in a lot of people's practices. Is that generated from being here because the distributive channels are weak?
Alan Dunn: There used to be the seaport of exchange in Liverpool and now they talk about the e-port. The sea used to be the main, straightforward channel of exchange with Liverpool. Now there is the e-port and we have the possibility of the audience being the world. And I know it's a tacky phrase but its true, but I think there is something in that in that we are living here and change thinking, distributing practice with the world.
Becky Shaw: That sounds like a good place to end. Has anyone got anything to add?
Clive Gillman: I suppose it's this thing about wanting to be a famous artist. We have to get that out of the way if we are going to achieve anything that has any lasting significance, that has a relevance beyond the city, that it is not actually driven by people who are famous artists but that it is actually something different in practices that are significant.
Rebecca Reid: In a word of last minute support for the Art School, in the words of my tutor in my first tutorial, they said to me, Rebecca you can make a choice now, you can either be good or famous, You choose one and you might get both, but if you chose famous you won't get good.
Becky Shaw: Ok then, we will finish. Thankyou everyone for being prepared to do this on camera and I think our conclusion is we just get on and make good work.
END